full disclosure: i'm an agnostic. my mother was born-again when i was in high school. at that time, i developed an interest in christian theology, admittedly from the skewed perspective of "know thine enemy" because at the time, i was a very angry atheist. interactions i've had with others online over the years have definitely modified my thinking on the matter.
while posting a comment to a post by alienated, i got to thinking about all the various conversations i've had with christians and those familiar w/ christian theology.
i think christian fundamentalism is for the birds.
now, i have a few reasons for thinking this way:
1. jewish bible/christian bible. if christ fulfilled the law of the jews, as is recorded in matt 5: 17 or luke 24: 44, this means that the jewish bible (known to most in the western world as the old testament), this means that the jewish bible is superceded by christ's teachings. the logical consequence is that the jewish bible is no longer of any relevance whatsoever to christians and might as well not exist. after all, if christ replaced the ten commandments with "love your neighbor as yourself", there really isn't much more that needs saying, is there?
2. how do christian fundamentalists reconcile the message of christianity (love) with the fact that throughout all history, only 144000 people will escape from the tribulation? think about this: christianity's been around since around 30-50 CE. throughout the whole of human history since, how many billions of people have walked the earth? if god has the three traditional traits of omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience, he knowingly created a situation in which a (relatively speaking) practically insignificant number of people will enjoy eternal life when the rest of the world goes blooey?
for these things to be true, fundamentalism must choose: either god is not omnibenevolent or a good moral being insofar as we can understand the term, or fundamentalism is intrinsically flawed.
am i oversimplifying? is there a context missing to how these scriptural quotations are presented here? comment and tell me.
ed
silverwhisper posted on Aug 01, 2006
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Comments
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FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 01, 2006....
My concept of the Bible is that it is a Book of Account of God's words. The Old Testament tells of God's direct participation with His people who as history have shown to be an ingrateful group despite the many occasions of God's direct communication and intervention with them. The New Testament centers on the teachings and works of Jesus Christ. Jesus merely echoed God's sentiments when He said "Love your neighbors as yourself". It's a more direct and simplfified version of God's original ten commandments wherein with just one basic commandments, all else are already covered. Religion for me to relevant must be experienced. A relatioship with God in Jesus Christ can't be understood by merely theorizing, conceptualizing and arguing with the use of human intellect. God to be really relevant must be experienced within the soul in a spiritual sort of way. Not to worry, that transformation time will come when God has decided to touch you, there's no going back to your former self, this is the subject of lidstrom's latest post, how Jesus has touched and changed his life. INMHO, I don't also understand fully well the 144000 that will be saved from the tribulation. I only know one thing, I wish I could be part of those whose names are already written in the book of life. God bless you Ed. :) And by the way, please define agnostic? -
silverwhisper said on Aug 01, 2006....
thank you, FD. i'm aware that the tribulation creates problems for many christians and i guess i wasn't sure what to expect upon hitting [post]. :> i am using the word agnostic in the following sense: a person who believes that the existence of god is unknowable. in this respect, i stand between the theist, such as yourself, and the atheist, who believes no god exists. i do not know whether there is a god. i have seen things in life that i cannot explain by science, things that appear contrary to my understanding of science. i cannot rule out the existence of that which is greater than my comprehension but neither can i prove it exists in any satisfactory way: the tools i would use are limited by being transcended by it, you see. ed -
Silverhawk13 said on Aug 01, 2006....
I'm with you Whisper. I grew up in a fundamentalist christion household where hellfire and damnation were the tools used to scare us into submission. As I got older I began to question. If god truly loves us like children, how and why would he creast a place like hell? If he is omnicient, he knows before we are born what choice we will make. If he knows we are going to hell, why would he allow us to be born? When I discipline my children, it is with the intent that they will learn and grow and make better choices in the future, with hell there is no possibility of that - hell is forever. What kind of loving god would even conceive of such a place? Any god who created hell is not worthy of my love, praise and respect. It took a long time for me to come to terms with all of these things. I turned my back on God for a long time. But I finally came to understand that it wasn't god who created these things, but man. Man has worked very hard to create god in his own image. But I finally figured a few things out: God is complete. He needs nothing from us as he is complete within himself (I use the masculine here simply because he/she becomes unwieldy). God does not require anything from us, including praise or worship because god does not have a fragile ego that needs to be stroked. God does not need. God simply IS. It is we who need god. God is the difference between us being "ugly bags of mostly water" (to quote Star Trek) and us being living breathing sentient beings. God is like the air - or like water to fish - god is everywhere and in everything. Us being seperated from god is not possible. It can't happen. Therefore we don't need to do anything to get back to God. We are in god and god is in us, every second of every moment of every hour of every day, everything is sacred because god is present. There is no separation. The profane is sacred and the sacred is profane. It is all one - we are all one. There. Is. No. Separation. -
silverwhisper said on Aug 01, 2006....
silverhawk: i need to ask, are you familiar with the works of william blake? you're espousing some sentiments that are reminiscent of him. ed -
Silverhawk13 said on Aug 01, 2006....
No I'm not. Who is he? -
silverwhisper said on Aug 01, 2006....
you can learn more about william blake ||{1}||. he's among my favorite poets and some of his artwork appeared in the film [i]red dragon[/i]. ed -
bloc said on Aug 01, 2006....
I have a hard time talking about christians because there are so many different types. It just seems that the most vocal are also the most hypocritical (i.e. robertson, etc). The ones that don't take the bible literally seem to be the most sane. The ones that hold on to absolutes believe all kinds of contradictions as you've pointed out. @FaithfulDisciple You said, "I only know one thing, I wish I could be part of those whose names are already written in the book of life." What does that mean? -
bipolarbear said on Aug 01, 2006....
i so agree, siverwhisperer, christian fundamentalism is for the birds! i belonged to a pentecostal church for 5 years. women were submissive , never cut their hair, and always wore long skirts. i look back and wonder "how crazy could i have been?" then oh yeah, it was right after an acid trip that i was "saved" and i was young and foolish!! anyway we were to read the entire bible each year. kept a chart to be sure the daily reading was done. the more i read, the old testament in particular, the more i began to hate god. after 5 years i cut my hair threw on some jeans and ran like hell. (i know, bad pun) i was bitter and resentful for a while claiming if there was a god i hated him. (just read the old testament to witness accounts of his cruelty, jealousy, vengefulness)...after a few years i mellowed. now, many years later i have come to some terms with spirituality. I agree with much of what silverhawk had to say about the existance of god. still so many unanswered questions for me however. -
FaithMatters said on Aug 01, 2006....
It's hard for me personally to follow any fundamentalist line of thought - be it fundamentalist christianity, islam, hinduism, or "rational" materialism. To my mind, such an outlook limits the scope of one's thinking and therefore draws one farther away from understanding all that God has to teach us. But I don't begrudge someone for following the fundamentalist path any more than they should begrudge me for choosing my path. Differing viewpoints only strengthen my faith and broaden my experience. When my life ends and I am called before God, God will do with me what God will - be it hell or rebirth or heaven or what. His decision may be fair to me or unfair. This really doesn't matter to me, though. What does matter is what I do and how I behave in the here and now. The Kingdom of God is at HAND - in OUR hands to do with as we will. God may indeed be all powerful, all knowing, etc. But we are not helpless, passive actors here, waiting on God to micromanage every little part of our lives. God did not create us that way. If God did, then we would be no more than the animals - vulnerable to the whims of changing seasons and just conscious enough to look after our most basic needs. God created us with the ability to reason and intuit and feel so that we may be in real, honest, conscious relationship with him. Worship in whatever solitary form is simply a method, a discipline, people have devised to connect with God mentally and physically. Corporate worship is a method of sharing that connection with others. Indeed as Silverhawk writes, God doesn't need this. The psalmist writes that God doesn't want this if doing this means ignoring the poor and tolerating oppression and suffering. But many of us, currently about 4 billion or 2/3rds of the global population, do need some form of corporate worship if for nothing else than to encourage and gain encouragement from others on a similar path. People who deny God's existence often rant against God for tolerating or causing all the violence and suffering in this world. A far more actionable question is why do WE tolerate it? We do WE cause it? Why do WE ignore it? Why do WE do nothing about it? It's so much easier to rant and rail against God, to turn our backs on God, than to give ourselves as genuine witnesses and testify to the damage WE do to each other and to ourselves. So much harder to make the daily changes and committments and sacrifices necessary to make our lives and this world worth living in. So much harder to piss powerful people off by suggesting we change the way we do things around here. I find it sad that so many self-defined agnostics or atheists or simply non-religious people appear to have come from a fire and brimstone childhood. My wife had a similar experience and so left Christianity behind when she began college. This hasn't been my experience. Thankfully my wife has come along with me and supports me in all that I do. I came into the Christian life at the age of 37, having studied several religious schools of thought. I have finally found a home. For this gift I thank God every single day. -
carmachu said on Aug 01, 2006....
My father has found, over 30 years in business, Fundementalists tend to be the worst of theives and liars. And use god as a coverall and forgives them for their misdeeds..... -
lidstrom82 said on Aug 01, 2006....
Everyone, remember a few things: 1. Most people are angry at God because of PEOPLE. A fire and brimstone childhood, or a church with dress codes and strict rules, parent or pastor, it's people that give us a skewed view of God. I bet that most people who think of God as a mean, uncaring oaf probably had a father/male figure in life who was a mean, uncaring oaf. Think about it - how we see our father can largely decide how we see God. 2. Just because many Christians have lied, cheated, stolen, and killed, doesn't mean Christianity is whack. If so, we should say humanity as a whole is whack because even more have lied, cheated, stolen, and killed. Christians are largely the same as nonchristians - it's just that in knowing God, Christians know who and how to worship - though many of them don't, or make God look bad, they understand what is happening in our world better than most. 3. Silver, 144,000 is not the predetermined number for those saved, so we all have a place in Heaven. 144,000 is a number in Revelation which was a vision of John - it's all metaphorical and figurative for a reason: we cannot know or predict when Jesus will return. Many parts of the Bible are literal, and some are spoken in metaphors. nonchristians often make the mistake of claiming to know the Bible is insane when they really just took their quoted verses out of context. It's not making an excuse of the Bible, it's just that it's critics get their facts wrong. 4. Also, many people who have been hurt by the church have closed themselves off to God. In the process, their listening and patience with talking about God is short. They've essentially ruled out learning any more, saying "I've learned enough". Many former Christians have a flawed view of God, but because of the hurt don't WANT to know a loving God, because in their eyes God = pain. It's like when someone hears "God" or "love" or "Christian", they automatically tune out, because it agitates them. I challenge anyone this applies to, to reevaluate God without the blinders of bitterness and resentment. 5. God is our Father in Heaven, which is a big deal to those who never knew a father, or had an unloving father. Our biological father disciplined us as children, which has already been mentioned before. God also disciplines us. However, He disciplined Israel as a nation, and many perished because they didn't trust in or obey Him. The evidence was right there in the wilderness, and people knew God was there, but STILL complained. Like rebellious children, they needed to be disciplined, but they did much worse than a child simply ignoring a parent. If God saw fit to afflict some of His people, it was justified. Or do we think we could give more fair justice? 6. Old Testament "rules" were how God related to His people before Jesus. Since Jesus came, a new agreement, or covenant, was reached. For example, we could pray to God directly because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, instead of asking forgiveness by preparing Drink Offerings, Whole Burnt Offerings, Absolution Offerings, and all other sorts of temple offerings the Old Testament people had to do. Silver, the Ten Commandments do apply, but when asked which one was the greatest, Jesus summed them up by simply saying to love God with all your heart, soul and mind. The next is to love your neighbor as yourself. Remember, the Pharisees asked him this question, and depending on his answer, they would have tried to have Jesus killed. He summed up the commandments and stumped them, in the end. Even though He was to be crucified later, Jesus still had work to do - so in explaining the commandments in that way, he silenced His enemies and continued to finish what was left before the appointed time to die. If any of the above comes off as blunt or strong, forgive me. God has gotten a bad rap by many people who blame Him for the damage they received from other people in the church. Just because someone goes to church and says they're a Christian doesn't mean they're perfect - we all get hurt by religious and nonreligious alike. God didn't tell them to hurt us...if they have the wrong idea about God, that God tells them to be all fire and brimstone, then THEY have the wrong idea, not God. Anyone who is critical of God is probably critical because a religious someone they respected in their life was critical of THEM. Blaming God for people's flaws is like blaming the mailman because no one sent you any mail - don't shoot the messenger, don't shoot the Creator. The root of Christianity is Jesus Christ, who was the Son of God sent to this Earth to die for our sins because we couldn't do it ourselves. He knew he was to die, and chose to do so instead of live a selfish life with all the power of God as his disposal. Remember also that God willingly gave us His Son Jesus in order to set all of humanity right with God again. That is probably the single greatest definition of love there has ever been. -
bloc said on Aug 01, 2006....
@lid "Many parts of the Bible are literal, and some are spoken in metaphors." how do you know which are which? -
bloc said on Aug 01, 2006....
"Old Testament "rules" were how God related to His people before Jesus. Since Jesus came, a new agreement, or covenant, was reached. For example, we could pray to God directly because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, instead of asking forgiveness by preparing Drink Offerings, Whole Burnt Offerings, Absolution Offerings, and all other sorts of temple offerings the Old Testament people had to do." ... "The root of Christianity is Jesus Christ, who was the Son of God sent to this Earth to die for our sins because we couldn't do it ourselves. He knew he was to die, and chose to do so instead of live a selfish life with all the power of God as his disposal. Remember also that God willingly gave us His Son Jesus in order to set all of humanity right with God again" [b]No offense[/b], but this sounds no different than the terrorists idea that when they blow themselves up they get a bunch of virgins. I.e. some crazy ass made up story. -
JadeLondon said on Aug 01, 2006....
I must say that my childhood had a profound effect on how I view religion. When I was sixteen, I was very depressed & begged my parents to take me to church because I was desperate to find some spiritual peace. I was baptised on Easter Sunday of that year & for the first time in many years, I felt at peace. This was also around the time that my mother was diagnosed with manic depression and attempted suicide. I am sad to say that it was her fourth attempt. I escaped the heartbreak that I was experiencing by writing. Much like now, it was something of an obsession with me. The closest way I can describe the feeling is to say it gave me a sort of "high". My very religious aunt came down to help take care of my mother when she came home from the hospital. It was not a very happy time. My mother was suffering from vivid hallucinations & was in a world of her own making. I was very stupid & naïve & when my aunt mentioned the notion of demonic possession, I wanted proof. I poured over the text that she gave me. Between that and my very charismatic aunt, I became convinced that perhaps I was an additional part of the problem. You see, I was writing a novel about vampires. She convinced me as long as I allowed evil to come in the house (through my writing), that my mother would not get well. On a day I will never forgive myself for, I destroyed 120 single-spaced pages. I cannot believe that she convinced me to destroy the fruit of the only labor that I ever loved. I still angry at myself over my foolishness. Depending on what cycle of her bi-polar disease that she was experiencing, my mother's religious views would change accordingly. When she was manic, she threw heed to wind. When she became angry, she would color the sky with a blue streak of her own. When she was depressed, she was remorseful. She would throw herself upon the couch & fervently leaf through the Bible, searching for her salvation. My mother's illness took hold of the house with a terrible ferocity. There was no time for church. Our roles were reversed. I had become the parent, now. Always, I had to come home & take care of her. One of my friends told me that my mother was not getting any better because she must not have enough faith in God. Slowly, I started to drift away from the life I knew. I was angry. I did not understand the hypocrisy that I saw in those precious "saved" about me. I began to keep to myself. I quit talking to God, for the most part (I even quit writing to Him. Yes, know it is strange that I did that--but there you have it). But I guess I have digressed--enormously. I think that much of the Bible is metaphorical. Jesus spoke in parables and (I think anyway) the Bible is an extension of the same. (I expanded more thoroughly in ALIENated's post about my views on Revelations & the 144,000.) I don't want you to think that I am not open-minded because I am. I have read portions of the Koran (did you know a woman should not handle the book during menses--b/c she is considered unclean?) and the "Book of J" (which is very interesting, especially from a comparison standpoint). I don't know much about other religions, but that is only because I have not had the opportunity to learn (yet). I am definitely not a Fundamentalist, but I do support the Golden Rule. I like the teachings of Jesus and prefer the benevolence of the New Testament, as opposed to the unforgiving, vengeful Old. A Bible thumper I am not. But I think the idea of forgiveness & salvation is nice. On a lighter side note: Firstborn climbed atop our dining room table, and when his father asked him what he was doing, he answered: "Talking to Jesus." Then I had Firstborn at the store the other day, and Starr was standing behind me while I was waiting to pay. Unbeknowst to him, she had already paid for her things. She opened a bag of candy, and when she put a piece in her mouth, he yelled, "You better pay for that first or you are going to hell." I didn't teach him that--he caught it off of a "South Park" commercial (I still can't get over the fact that it is on regular television. I don't even have cable.) I would like to think if I teach him the Golden Rule that he will be just fine. -
JadeLondon said on Aug 01, 2006....
Silver!!! Will you please fix this? If you don't delete my extra posts, I won't be able to sleep tonight. The only reason that this happened is because when I hit the "submit" button, SoulCast gave me an error message that there was a problem responding to my request. Very frustrated, I signed off--and was going to write you a note concerning my problem when--lo and behold, I found my post. About a million times over! -
silverwhisper said on Aug 01, 2006....
jade: done. :> lidstrom: re #5, i know fundamentalists who do believe that number is literally the total. you understand scripture differently than those folks of whom i speak do. but i promise you, such people do exist. ed -
hunter_boyce_chandler said on Aug 01, 2006....
I've already flooded these airways with my tirades against organized religion. I've tried unsuccessfully to be shocking and argumentative. The truth is I really care about people. I care about the ones who feel justified by their faith. I care about the ones who are left behind. I care about the sinners and the outcasts, and I care about the ones who are pointing their finger. I care about the Worf's of this world who spend everyday in service to god by helping those around him. I care about the battered wives. I care about the women who are forced to choose. I care about the children who love unworthy parents. I care about SoldierCipsWife who waits at home. I care about Zelda who hides her pain. I care about my SoulCast family and my real family at home. I really don't care who is right, It's just not important to me anymore. -
Zayda said on Aug 01, 2006....
I am very jaded with it comes to christian fundamentalism or most christians because I am far too tired of people trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. In my middle school and high school years, I grew up in the south in a baptist household. Before, when my father was in the military, I don't actually remember us as a family going to church, but I do remember my parents making me go to Sunday school occasionally while they never went to Sunday school or church. My mother found God when I was in middle school and I suppose I did. I say suppose because at the time, I accepted Christ into my life, was baptized. I attended church regularly on Sundays--both morning and evening services; I attended Wednesday evening services; I worked with the summer program for children; helped with children's church and children's choir; I helped with Vaction Bible School. I even made the choice to go to a religiously affiliated college upon my graduation from high school. This is a choice that I partially regret but am partially grateful for because it forever changed my perception of the place that religion plays in my life. At this school, each semester, I was required to attend so many chapels per semester; once I met the requisit number, I wasn't required to attend any more. Chapels were always held at a specific time, on Tuesdays and Thurdays, I believe, and no classes were scheduled during this time, so students could attend chapel. I distinctly remember getting the requisite number out of the way early in the semester so I would have that time free for the bulk of the semester. I remember students who would attend every single Tuesday and Thursday chapel to bask in the glory of the presence of God, while others would put off attending to the last minute and spend chapel cramming for tests or doing anything but listening to God's message. I stopped attending church while I was in college; and I don't attend it now because I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I have left my Baptist/Christian faith behind because it is not for me any more. I am a Spiritualist. I have adopted life philosophies that are akin to the beliefs of many religions, including Buddhism, Hinduism, and Wiccan. Ironically, I am married to a man who's religious background is more conservative than mine and my family's, but he accepts that I do not believe as he believes (his family isn't too keen on the fact that he married outside his faith, however). I don't begrudge anyone their personal beliefs and greatly appreciate it when people don't try to shove their god or their religion down my throat, which happens all to often in a small mid-Western town and in the Southern town that my parents still live in. I, like Hunter, care about people regardless of their faith, their creed, or their beliefs. I have learned that the differences in those beliefs enrich my life and give me a different perspective by which to occassionally look at the world; I can accept that others believe differently than I do and that they have as much right to those beliefs as I do to mine. -
ALIENated said on Aug 02, 2006....
Great discussion. Might I add a quote I heard somewhere? Most of you have probably heard it. Even the devil himself has heard it ... For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That is what I call [i]good news[/i]! Here is another one ... I tell you that every idle word that men speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. Chilling. Judgement. Ouch. See you there. -
thenack said on Aug 02, 2006....
On the topic of fundamentalism, I would rather be fundamental in a belief, than a soggy yello person that goes around with no real belief and not thiking about anything. Even Bob Dylan said it in a song, it whent something like, " You're gonna have to follow someone, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord" the point is, going as the wind blows and not caring, has no honour, has no truth and ultimately will get to nothing. It is in anycase lame, cowardly and selfseeking. On the other side, I also know that many Christian fundamentalists, use the bible and God to do all types of terrible things, I can't give a better account than certain eras of the Roman Catholic church. That however does not change anything about God, it just confirms what we know about humans. However, even the humanist and gnostic fundamentalists use their "religion" to justifay all kinds of evil, if they want to believe it or not. In the above posts it is already very clear that people are quick to call Christians "fundamenta" but fail to be true to this definition regarding their own beliefs. Christianity has brought forth some of the greatest developements in history, it is in esscence about Godly Love, something humans can only tey to be. The world is full of lunes, because some of them are in churches doesn't mean some of them are gnostics. If you really want to be true to the philosophy of caring for people, you would also take the time to get to know some Christians before you make up your mind. Being gudgemental and arrogant is what some Christians may do at times, but I asure you most of you have done this also, maybe without even realising it. We are all biased in some way, thats a fact. A quick word about silverwispers questions, Jesus Christ did not supercede the old testament, most of it is history, just like the new testament. Its importance is fundamental to Christianity. It is incredibly rich and very interesting, even to non Christians. Jesus came to fulfill the profesies of the old testament and to complete the plan set out at creation. There are varying literary stiles used in the old and new testament. Some of it is prophesy, some is poetry, most is history and some is aphochrolicalblablanla (sorry). If you read each part in context, and gudge each part according to the whole, there is usually no problem. the 144K mentioned, are only men. Most things in this book are visions and symbols, taliking about spiriual things, and describing them as symbol. Babilon is not really a purple cloaked whore, nore are there really a ten headed dragon. So way take the 144K on the mount to be your pivotal reason for blasting Christianity? The same goes fro Christians interpreting this part (144K0 as meaning there will be only 144K people going to heavan and they will only be men. Thats equaly wrong. So the problem is not in being fundamental, its about being truth seaking. Take the time to thouroghly gather information and meet people. Get their views and THINK for yourself. Be critical and be sharp, but don't be too quick to for opinions, we are often too arrogant in our grasp of a consept, speaking jugement before we even truly understand. Thats some of my opinion, if you get into this some more and you really take it seriously, you will start seeing the big pickture, the world is devided in two, some will go this way and some will go that, but ultimately, you can follow the piper, and end up a rock, or you can refuse the piper and end up in the forrest of laughter. All that glitters is not gold. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
Bloc: It is written in the Bible, that even before the world was created by God, the names of those who are to share eternal glory in God's Kingdom is already written in the Book Of Life. Ergo what that means, even before Creation, God already knows who will and won't be saved. Does that make sense? It's up to you what you believe. -
thenack said on Aug 02, 2006....
Bloc Its plain and simple to get which is which, most of the time the book says, I am no going to tell a profesy (look for symbols here) other times it says, this is what happened and I wrote it down, theres your history, some guys sain this is a song...poetry. There a re also a host of really smart guys who actually know hebrew and greek writing stiles that classify it more technically, just as we dod wen reading and english newspaper, discerning cartoon, from finacial pages, even if both give the same message. The terroris has no merrit for believing that, Islam is not really that old, it started fairly recently by a guy Mohammed who were mixing a bunch of religions, including Judaism and Christiandom. Read a little about this guy and decide if you want to really compare him to Jesus. Besides, judoe Christian belief was there from the start, it has the bible to back this up. there are hosts of profecies in the old testament that are very clearly flfilled in the new, which should already get you thinking how guys 4000years ago knew what was going to happen 2000 years ago. Take ten seconds and you will, if you are not too biassed, see a huge difference between the terrorist story of sexual heavenly pleasure for earthly sacrifice and what the bible teaches. -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
I remember being in junior school when I was little (about 6-10ish) In England where I still live. We would have a school meeting every morning and it was called an assembly. The teacher called out all the names of the students and you had to raise your hand if you were present. That was followed by us all saying some prayer and then signing a hymn. This was a christian hymn and christian prayer. It was totaly wrong because it was Not a christian school. It was also wrong because all the children that were of familys who followed a different religion were asked to take part. Enforcement of belief on anyone is wrong. My point is this, Why do people of religion and or faith in religion always try and get other people to believe in their religion. It feels like they are trying to sell it to you sometimes and in fact sometimes they ARE in the case of scientology. (Detailed blog regarding this topic on its way!) I believe there is a certain amount of fundamentalism to every religion because you will always have a core section within that faith that believe that what they are saying is the truth and that every other religion is wrong. I have expressed this opinion before but this is the exact reason why I don't put faith in any religion. I put faith in myself. FaithfulDisciple "My concept of the Bible is that it is a Book of Account of God's words" This is the kind of comment I take issue with because it shows blind faith in a book, which is highly disputed to have even an ounce of truth. If you want to base or argue your point from a religious perspective then I totally respect that, but, I would ask that you educate yourself fully on what it is that you are commenting on. This is in a small way religious fundamentalism because it is showing a blind faith that what he has been told about his religion is true and thats that. I do not mean this comment to be disrespectful in any way. It’s just an observation I have noticed on sevel occasions when listing to people of faith speak. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
StupidGenius: Like I said the Bible is a Book of Account of God's Words as written by historians and designed by God to be written in what it is today. Whether you want to accept what is written as true is basically up to you. It is a story book of how God dealt with His people. Of course, it would be debatable to say that everything written in it is absolutely true. You just have to go by the major events such as the creation of the world, the creation of man, the disobedience of man and his falling into sin. If you will read it with an open mind not choosing to believe in it as absoulte truths, you will realize that certain events that transpired can't be the handiwork of man. Examples are the miraculous parting of the red sea to aid the Israelites in their escape from the slavery of the Egyptians. This was what I meant when I said it is a Book of Account of God's Words. It is simply a record of the events that transpired between God and His people. I do however believe that some events as described in both Old and New Testatments are acts attributable only to God. In the New Testament, accounts of raising Lazarus from the dead, the multiplication of the loaves and fishes to feed five thousand, the healing of the sick, and the rising to life of Jesus three days after His death. These are unexplainable events which defy human logic and scientific explanation. As to whether you want to accept these as absolute truths again is your option. This is my truth. God is all powerful, supernatural, Almighty, loving and merciful. Over time, He has proven his love in so many instances that man seems to be unworthily inappreciative of. How do you explain the magnanimity and love of a God who forgives the same people who crucified His only Son which He sent to save them from sins. The more logical approach for this God would be one of vengeance and retribution to exact payment for the merciless killing of Jesus Christ. But instead, He forgave us and because of His great love for us, we are given a chance to be saved from our sins but this chance is not a direct option. As Jesus has already declared, no one comes to the Father but through Me. The benevolent and loving God glorified His Son to show to mankind that despite the rejection and suffering that was unjustly inflicted by man on Jesus, He has forgiven us but only through voluntary acknowledgement and complete acceptance of His Son can we now go to God. As I said in my initial post, no amount of limited human scientific reasoning can explain the logic of how God has dealt with His people. To fully understand Him, one only needs to open his heart so that we may experience the true and living God from within. This is spiritual faith as opposed to blind faith. God bless all of you who understood from your heart the point I'm trying to make. :) -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
Silver: This is turning out to be one controversial post, but through it all, I pray that everyone who reads through it will find whatever kind of enlightenment they are seeking. :) -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
I understand the point you are making and as I said I truly hope you didnt take offense to what I wrote. Im not picking on you, infact I love speaking to people who have a belief in any religion because it helps me to further understand where I fall in the great sceme of things. "If you will read it with an open mind not choosing to believe in it as absoulte truths, you will realize that certain events that transpired can't be the handiwork of man. Examples are the miraculous parting of the red sea to aid the Israelites in their escape from the slavery of the Egyptians." Take the above quote from you post, I dont see how you can claim that certain events that transpired cant be the handywork of man? you are basing that statement of belief that that exerpt from the bible is a true reflection of events that actualy took place when there is no proof that is actualy did. "no amount of limited human scientific reasoning can explain the logic of how God has dealt with His people." This is another example of blind faith. I have no problem with you persuing this course throuout your life but as a logical thinker I would always analyse that which i do not understand. I will never accept something just becasue someone tells me it is true. I will never do something unless my heart tells me it is right. have you read my post ||{1}|| If I die and am dropped off at the gates of heaven, I will ask the driver to keep the meter running as I may need to continue my journey to hell taking the express way. -
silverwhisper said on Aug 02, 2006....
FD: yeah, i rather thought it might. and that is my hope as well. nack: i'm not hacking on christianity. i'm hacking on christian [i]fundamentalism[/i]. please don't make the mistake of thinking the two interchangeable: they aren't. christian fundamentalism requires a [i]literal[/i] reading of scripture: literally, only 6 days to create the universe. if you aren't familiar w/ that version of christianity, you owe it to yourself to [i]become[/i] familiar. as to making the jewish bible irrelevant: yes, the whole of it is irrelevant. the law given to moses was supposed to be fulfilled by christ. this makes the law completely irrelevant to christians and as most of that [i]defines[/i] judaism, well... ed -
carmachu said on Aug 02, 2006....
Just because many Christians have lied, cheated, stolen, and killed, doesn't mean Christianity is whack. Of course it does. To quote someone: "To be honest, I don't want to be part of any group that has you as a representitive. You drive people away from Christ with every word that spews from your keyboard." If thats how they act, Dont really wnt to be part of a group like that. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
Stupid Genius: It's good to be discussing such things as it can really help one to understand why we stand by our faith. I'm not offended by your arguments. I too read the Bible with an inquisitive mind asking so many questions. The Bible is God's words and it is also written that anyone who adds to it or take from it shall be responsible to God on day of judgment. I accept the premise that whatever is written there is according to God's will, it was for a purpose. Perhaps the only way to validate the events of the parting of the red sea is to ask the living relatives of those who are descendants of the Israelites who have witnessed the events to subtantiate it, which is close to impossible. In like manner, I also challenge those who subscribed to the theory that Jesus married Mary Magdalene who bore His descendants. Let any living descendant of Jesus and Mary come out in the open to affirm this theory. Are you suggesting then that the Bible is a book of half truths or total lies that are worthless to based one's faith on since what is written in it by man can't be scientifically and satisfactorily proven? If those extraordinary events are not to be accepted as truths following your logic, then the Bible is indeed one fantastic fiction book with one great story after another woven by an overly imaginative creative writer. Is it also right to say that the resurrection of Jesus can't be true since there is no documented proof? Where then is Jesus, where are his human remains, his bones? In like manner, the marriage of Jesus to Mary can't be true as there are no living witnesses from His descendants to affirm and validate such a claim. What and who then do we believe? Read with an open mind and heart, then when you have undestood what is written can you formulate your appropriate conclusions. Silver confirms this by saying "i do not know whether there is a god. i have seen things in life that i cannot explain by science, things that appear contrary to my understanding of science. i cannot rule out the existence of that which is greater than my comprehension but neither can i prove it exists in any satisfactory way". Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it isn't truth. Open your mind and your heart, this is what Jesus told Judas for him to understand his earthly purpose. I say the same thing to you, open your mind and your heart SG to fully understand the Bible. -
GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 02, 2006....
Wow. Two things you don't discuss in polite company: Religion and Politics, and here I am, about to get into the second. Soulcast is no polite company, I guess. But so far, I've noticed that it's raw, real and hypnotically compelling. This is the seventh or eighth post I've spent over twenty minutes reading the whole thread. It's amazing. Having said that, this is my disclaimer. These are the things I believe in. It's what I've gathered so far according to the information that was given me. I'm not posting this to "bait" people into an arguement, or anything like that. I was just inspired by all the content in this thread to share my views. I'll start off with a joke. "I'm what you would call a teleological existentialist. I believe that there's a grand intelligence to the Universe, except certain parts of New Jersey." -Woody Allen in the movie Sleeper, 1973- I am definitely not what you would call a Christian. Everyone in my family, except myself, are die-hard Presbys(Presbytarians, off shoot of Calvinists, big supporter of predeterminism). My lady's Roman Catholic. As a person living in the West, one cannot deny the impact Christ has had in the shaping of the Western World. I went through many stages of beliefs growing up. I considered myself a born-again pythagorian, worshipping numbers(more precisely, the the equation involving the size of the sun and the earth, and the distance between the two which enables it to sustain an atmospere, and so on), then I became a born-again pagan, actually worshipping the celestial objects. Now that I'm grown, I feel that my views have changed considerably. My lady, I think, is in some way concerned about saving my soul. My family, too. I've taken a much more open view to religion. I said to my lady, "Meh, God and I are cool". She said, "I don't know that he is". The way I look at it now is like this. I talk to God all the time. Sometimes, when I come home late at night, I like to sit outside my place, have a smoke and talk to God. Wrap up the day, so to speak. God mostly listens, but sometimes speaks to me(heresy, I know. Burn him at the stake. Hear me out though). I don't know if this has happened to anyone else, but I can't imagine me being the only one. I was going through a major crisis at one point. I was freaking out about it. My heart was breaking, my work was unsatisfactory, I was genuinely unhappy. I was at my wits end. It was one of those moments of sheer dissatisfaction with your situation that it made you want to pound your fists into the ground and tear at your clothes. I was ranting to God. Railing against him. I compared myself to Job(hubris), I lamented. I asked, "What is it that you want me to do?" That's when it hit me. Like a bolt of lightening. The answer was so simple, I dropped to my knees and became silent. The voice, the quiet, inner voice came from me, but not from me. At the time, I was distraught, desparate, panicked. This voice was so quiet, so calm and tranquil. It was like that high pitched whine you hear in your ear after a loud noise. It was like that. And the voice said, "Just do what you can". It probably sounds stupid, but perhaps when you're down and out, you could give it a try. I happen to think God likes inane chatter, as well. At the very least, it'll be good for theraputic reasons. I believe in God. To me, God definitely exists. God is in all things. From the sky to a grain of sand. Everything takes part in God and God takes part in all. The tiny voice inside me that wasn't me(soon to be a blog topic), a loaf of baking bread, a blade of grass...you get the idea. If God tells me he(sorry. English lacks a gender neutral word that designates "being") is the God of Abraham, I say, "well, of course". If God says he is my God, I have to accept. I have no chice in the matter. For I take part in God's greatness and he in me, I can never turn away from him. People can turn their backs to God, but God never turns away. You can't hide from him, He's everywhere, in all things, constantly watching you. Make peace with your God. I think it's in your best interest to do so. As for X-tian fundamentalism, the propagation of faith has become a business and masses are forced into dogmatic groupthink, which might be a perfect compliment to the dogmatic groupthink of the red states(not really want to get into a red state, blue state discussion. It's just a generalization). Bah! It all just becomes a jumbled mess when I try to lay it out in print. Forget it. -
GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 02, 2006....
Wo, major typo towards the end there. I said, "For I take part in God's greatness and he in me"(Unbelievable). What I meant to say was "I take part in God's greatness and he IS in me". -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
Wow, this is what you Soulcasters are all about. Very good writers with insightful thoughts and persuasive arguments. Intellectuals indeed to a fault, trying to define God which is beyond our finite understanding. To quote the Little Prince: "It is only through the heart that one sees rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye". God bless all Soulcasters! :) -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
GrapeKoolAid: You did the right thing in correcting your typo error or you'll find these posts to be filled with unceasing hate responses for such a careless remark. Funny how one word can reverse the meaning of such a sensitive sentence. I had to burst out in laughter as I read your correction. In JC's famous words: "Dude, your sins are forgiven you." Peace :) -
GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 02, 2006....
How right you are FD. The Little Prince is one of my favorite books. I still read it sometimes. It always gets me a little choked up. I also think you hit the nail right on the head in God being beyond our understanding. That's why it always comes out jumbled for me. -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
Personally I believe that when someone says that they have spoken to God and that they have been given direction by God etc, its simply not true. It may be true to you because your brain is telling you that as a last desperate attemp you could always pray to God and he will help you. I think God is used like a comfort blanket. No matter how distressed and upset you are you believe that he will somehow save you. If someone in your family is dying or ill, you somehow think he will come to your rescue. If your team is losing the game you somehow think that because you don't want to lose your stake that he will somehow perform a miracle and make them win. (Sorry, that's just sarcasm lol) What i'm saying is that the facts and the truth about the bible and what and how the bible was created is ultimately irrelevant because your mind will refuse to accept those facts either way due to your reliance on the feeling of safety you perceive from having an almighty being watching over you. -
tifa said on Aug 02, 2006....
Silverhawk. as a response to --> If god truly loves us like children, how and why would he creast a place like hell? If he is omnicient, he knows before we are born what choice we will make. If he knows we are going to hell, why would he allow us to be born? When I discipline my children, it is with the intent that they will learn and grow and make better choices in the future, with hell there is no possibility of that - hell is forever. What kind of loving god would even conceive of such a place? Any god who created hell is not worthy of my love, praise and respect. we have to keep in mind that God is a vengeful god. Hell was originally created to emprison The Morning Star (i.e. Satan) and the angels who followed him in his rebellion. In John Milton's Paradise Lost, Satan says: "I would rather rule Hell than serve God in Heaven". Which is why Hell is still "there". Those who follow in the path of Satan will go to Hell. However, its not because you dont believe that you will go to Hell. I personnally don't think that murderers and pedophiles deserve a place in Heaven, at least those who do it repeatedly and don't care for the consequences. Even if it doesnt show sometimes, God is forgiving, every second of your life he gives you another chance for you to make something good and you have your whole life to work on that, but there's always a limit to what God can handle. God doesn't know who's going to go to Hell and who's not. Which is why he concieved free will. you make the choice to go to Heaven or Hell, to do good or bad things. we are not God's puppets. OK, God is all knowing, but he knows what will happen if you take a path or another. Also, you say that with hell there is no possibility to redeem for our faults. But there is, you have your whole life to do that, as I mentionned before. You only get one life, live it in peace and love (that sounds corny..hehe..but you get my point). There's alot of things that contradict themselves and it gets confusing sometimes, but if you keep an optimistic view, sometimes it can fall into place. hehe. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just giving you my point of view as a Christian. -
tifa said on Aug 02, 2006....
StupidGenius. as a response to: Personally I believe that when someone says that they have spoken to God and that they have been given direction by God etc, its simply not true. It may be true to you because your brain is telling you that as a last desperate attemp you could always pray to God and he will help you. I don't necessarily think that's true. I have witnessed miracles and my family has witnessed miracles (and honestly, i dont think they're liars) pertaining to God's power. Some of these happened and the person was not in dier need of help or prayed God as a last resort. we know God is not a genie in a bottle who will accord us 3 wishes. we pray God to give us streingth to get through whatever it is we're going through. God is not there to do the work for us. I don't know. Thinking like that gives me an optimistic view on things in life. -
chaime said on Aug 02, 2006....
Hmm.. I don't know about Christian fundamentalism or any other technical theological term, I'd like to think I know of God and religion. I do believe in God, but I do not believe in religion, per se. I believe that whatever religion or belief you have. It's all based on YOU and you alone. whether you're catholic, christian, born again, baptist, even jewish or muslim. If you choose to follow one path, good or bad that's what you'll be. Me? I choose to try to be as good a person as I possibly can. I try not to hurt others as long as they don't hurt me. I try to live my life with the thought that what I do today will inevitably affect me tomorrow. I believe that God gave us minds and wills of our own, so we can choose how we live. There is no going around it... People can kill other people.. go to jail... and believe that in the end if they repent and ask for forgiveness they will still go to heaven.... they steal and if they get caught and go to jail. After they have served their sentences, they go about their lives again, if they choose to steal again, there is no God involved there, no religion, it's their own choice. I believe in StupidGenius that people somehow call on God as a comfort blanket, a shoulder to cry on, a miracle worker, even as a sounding hole... that somehow when things go wrong, you can blame God for not listening to your prayers and if things go right, it was God who intervened for you and got things going and of course there is a feeling of reassurance or safety (as genius put it) that there will always be someone there who will be a guide, a guard and giver in your life. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
SG, this discussion is never going to end. Your heart tells you that there is no one greater to believe in, thus your mind follows. What then is your point in trying to rationalize the firm foundations of those whose belief run counter to yours? Why are you endlessly questioning the validity and authority of God, if your spirit is not thirsting to know the truth that there really is a God? How do you justify the restlessness of your soul as you untiringly debate the reality of God? The way I see it, God is already working his way on you. And this is what I call interactive Christianity. What do you profit if you engage in a debate with any Christian who doesn't buy your story or subscribe to your arguments anyway? It doesn't make any difference to me since I don't intend to impose my beliefs upon you. But the mere fact that there is restlessness in your heart and you look for answers simply means that you're still searching for an answer. Now tell me, who or what is making you feel this way? Christianity isn't only about the Christians or the teachings of the Church. Real interactive Christianity is when God touches your heart and you begin to understand and see things in a different but enlightened way. To me, God isn't a comfort blanket or a do it all genie that grants every prayer that comes His way. God is sort of complicated, undefinable. The only certain thing I can say about God is that He is loving and merciful. My fundamentals about Christianity is not solely based on Church teachings or Bible readings. It is based on an interactive personal experience of God who throughout my life has shown me that He is faithful to His promises specially to those who love and accept Him unconditionally. :) -
Expendable said on Aug 02, 2006....
What you want to believe or not believe and the reality can be different. When what we desire conflicts with reality, why is it we choose to blame reality? -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
FaithfulDisciple & tifa "What then is your point in trying to rationalize the firm foundations of those whose belief run counter to yours? Why are you endlessly questioning the validity and authority of God, if your spirit is not thirsting to know the truth that there really is a God?" Ok as a human being it is our nature to be curious and try to obtain answers for that which we know nothing. This what I am doing, you seem to have convinced yourself that questioning your faith in God means that there must be something missing within it. I do not question my faith or belief because it is a faith and belief I have in myself. "To me, God isn't a comfort blanket or a do it all genie that grants every prayer that comes His way. God is sort of complicated, indefinable. The only certain thing I can say about God is that He is loving and merciful." Where is the mercy? People are dying in the world he "created" everyday. Where is his "Love"? I repeat... People are dying. You are saying that if you don't love him unconditionally then he will not accept you? If he created me then he created my hunger to question the world I live in today. Your faith is truly blind as you draw the name and details of existence of the being you call "God" from the bible. If the bible did not exist then would you even know that there was such a thing as god? If god is real in any way shape or form then he will accept that people will question his word because he made us that way. The man that creates a bomb for the purposes of destruction is responsible for the destruction that that bomb creates for without that creation the bomb would not exist. I think that maybe you are scared to question the fundamental beliefs your faith stems from and therefore hide behind this "unconditional Love and acceptance" wall of thought. I have researched the bible and read it many times. I encourage you to read about where the information in that bible actually came from and recognise that your faith is based on mistakes and inaccuracy. Also just because you perceive something to be a miracle doesn't mean that it was manifested by God. Something's we will never understand but that doesn't mean that the easy excuse of "God did it" is acceptable as a reason for something happening. im with you on this one chaime :) SG -
bloc said on Aug 02, 2006....
@thenack "judoe Christian belief was there from the start" from the start of what? It wasn't there from the start of human history so I have to say you are wrong here. I think you are seeing what you want to see when you read the bible. I see a very contradictory book that has some good parts and some bad parts. The NT says that you should gouge out your eyes if they cause you to lust. That doesn't sound very godly to me. -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
Bravo Bloc! You have seen the truth brother ;) lol -
tifa said on Aug 02, 2006....
SG, "I think that maybe you are scared to question the fundamental beliefs your faith stems from and therefore hide behind this "unconditional Love and acceptance" wall of thought. I have researched the bible and read it many times. " I am not scared to question the fundamental beliefs of my faith. I have questionned it and questionned it over and over again, i was an atheist for the longest time, but I have gone back to it because of experiences that made me feel like there was a God. And if the Bible didn't exist, it doesnt mean that God doesnt exist. when people were polytheists, there was no Bible, but there were gods and goddesses. So the Bible is not the only thing we base ourselves when we believe in a higher being. Also, where did you read about the information in the Bible, because I'd like to read that (seriously, i'm not being sarcastic). And can I ask you to develop on how our faith is based on mistakes and innacuracies? as for the miracles part, I believe that when you see a saint, or Jesus or the Virgin Mary, its pretty much an act of God. You might say, ok, if you see these kinds of things, you're crazy. maybe I am and maybe I'm not, but can't I just believe that it is an act of God? -
bloc said on Aug 02, 2006....
@tifa "i was an atheist for the longest time, but I have gone back to it because of experiences that made me feel like there was a God." I understand the feeling that you speak of, but why did that turn into christianity for you? -
tifa said on Aug 02, 2006....
"I think you are seeing what you want to see when you read the bible. I see a very contradictory book that has some good parts and some bad parts. The NT says that you should gouge out your eyes if they cause you to lust. That doesn't sound very godly to me." I for sure agree that alot of Bible doesn't really make sense. But we gotta keep in mind that writers make history, meaning that the one who holds the pen decides what happened and what didn't. especially in those days where writing wasnt entitled to everyone. It is all different points of views. So, i agree that maybe some of the passages (like the one stated above) don't make sense and I would ask myself the same question. It was all written for a reason. I don't believe that it was just someone on a powertrip who wrote that book. alot of what's written in there has similarities with other religions, alot of them have a story with a great flood for example. So some of it must be true, or was it just a coincidence that they all happen to have a flood in their stories? Also, alot of the Bible should not be taken litterarly but metaphorically. I also don't think that because the Bible says it, it must be true. Which is why i never quote the Bible to prove a point. But, it doesnt stop me from reading the Bible and reading between the lines, looking for a more profound meaning than just "poke your eyes out if you're lusting". Besides, the Bible would say that because lust is one of the 7 deadly sins, provided, according to the faith, by Satan, who rebelled against God and corrupted humans. Evil cannot exist without the presence of good. Evil is a lessening of good and vice versa (to paraphrase Augustine). -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
here you go babe ||{1}|| also look these up in your bible... Genesis 1:3-5: God created light and separated it from the darkness on the FIRST day Genesis 1:14-19: God didn't create light until the FOURTH day and Genesis 1:11-12, 26-27: Trees were created before man. Genesis 2:4-9: Man was created before trees. Plus av a butchers hook at my blog on jesus [url]ere.... http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/2372/The-Story-of-Jesus-the-magician [url=http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/2372/The-Story-of-Jesus-the-magician ]Doh!![/url][/url] -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
doh!!!!! and I mean it this time!! formating was cursed I tells ya..... "Why is a pirate called a pirate?"... Because they Arrrggghhhh [url=http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/2372/The-Story-of-Jesus-the-magician ]Doh!![/url] lets see if that works...... -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
oh well, the web address is there.... I bow my head in shame ||{1}|| -
StupidGenius said on Aug 02, 2006....
Silver!!!! Please remove the two post that dont make any sense... (oi, I know what your thinking fella!) and this one. cheers -
silverwhisper said on Aug 02, 2006....
sometimes, the SC software inserts the URL tags when it encounters http. i find it annoying as well. ed -
SoulCast said on Aug 02, 2006....
sorry about the formatting :( The update we made yesterday was supposed to fix the formatting issue but seems to have made it worse. This will be fixed by tomorrow for all new comments. - Soulcast Admin -
Indiefilm said on Aug 02, 2006....
I have a theological question, which might stem from the fact that I've never read the bible... and I have a penchant for playing the devils advocate... Lucifer rebelled against God, God threw Lucifer out. that part makes sense... Why would Lucifer punnish those who defied God as he did? wouldn't he [i]want[/i] people to follow him? I mean, why he lead people into temptation, just so he can spend an eternity punnishing them [i]for[/i] joining his team? If he was going to punnish anyone I would think that he would capture some people from the other side and let his minions torture them. -
tifa said on Aug 02, 2006....
Lucifer originally rebelled because he wasnt happy with God's position. God created his angels to serve him and eventually serve humans. So when Lucifer heard of this human kind thing, he decided he would destroy what was going to be God's best creation because the angels were supposed to serve them. Lucifer was against that, he thought "we came first, why should we live a life of servitude to ungrateful people", so he went down to earth, had sex with beautiful ladies and revealed the secret of God (originally, these are 2 angels, Azazel and Semyaz, who started this whole mess). So that's why he tempts Eve out of the garden and so on and so forth. He temps us to stray away from the path of God. His point is not to bring people on his side, he wants to play with God's creation and screw it up. hehe. that's the story in a nutshell. -
Indiefilm said on Aug 02, 2006....
~bows~ Thank you tifa, that clears up a question i've had for some time now. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 02, 2006....
SG: "If god is real in any way shape or form then he will accept that people will question his word because he made us that way." Man has been given free will to accept or reject God. God does not reject man, it is man who rejects God, this is your option. 1Co 1:18-21 18 For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God. 19 For it is written "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the wisdom of the perceiving ones." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Man's wisdom is finite and can never be greater than the wisdom of the infinite God. It is easier to reject the concept of God as you are unable to comprehend the infinite God with your finite understading. 1Co 1:27-29 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing, things that are; 29 so that no flesh should glory in His presence. In these passages, it is clear that man can never be greater than God, as man is nothing compared to God. Yet for all of our limitations, why should God even bother to send Jesus His only Son so that the ingrateful mankind may just reject Him to be crucified and put to death? Is this not the act of love and mercy of a God whose qualities are beyond the comprehension of man? Open your heart and your mind. To fully understand God, begin to open your heart. "Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." Heb 4:7 -
StupidGenius said on Aug 03, 2006....
Instead of quoting the bible why don't you answer from your own point of view. In my opinion the story of heaven and hell is just propaganda, Its like saying oooh don't say anything bad about the church or god because then you will go to hell. Christianity is using fear to install in people its beliefs. If you do not accept god or go against his wishes then you will go to hell. I have pointed out mistakes in the bible yet on another post you told me that in order for me to understand the bible I would have to believe in god? Blind Faith is like a protective blanket over you. The reality of the world does not matter because ultimately God will save you... well as silver whisper pointed out only 144000 are going to heaven hope you have got your ticket. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 03, 2006....
SG: Instead of quoting the bible why don't you answer from your own point of view. Your foolish wisdom is finite and can never be greater than the wisdom of the infinite God. Thus, it is easier for you to reject the concept of God as you are unable to comprehend the infinite God with your finite understanding. You can never be greater than God, as you are nothing compared to God. Be console in the fact that the love and mercy of God are qualities are beyond your comprehension. Thus all you must do is to open your heart and your mind. To fully understand God, begin to open your heart. -
tifa said on Aug 03, 2006....
@bloc: "@tifa "i was an atheist for the longest time, but I have gone back to it because of experiences that made me feel like there was a God." I understand the feeling that you speak of, but why did that turn into christianity for you?" Well, i was raised a catholic and was going to church with my parents every sunday, in arabic. I didnt understand ANYTHING, so for me it was a pain to go. Even now, i don't think the church as an institution offers much. people go out of habit, but that's besides the point for it could open up a new thread. hehe. I was also part of the scout movement at my church and we'd talk about God and Jesus and what not and at first i was just following blindly because i was raised into believing in God and the power of God, etc. So at one point, after asking myself if there really was a God, I was very much doubting the writings of the Bible and Jesus' stuff, like...what if Jesus was just a goof who was clever enough to get people to believe all the stuff he did? What if he was just an alchemist who got people on his side and just wanted to be a hero? So, i left the church, tried looking for another spiritual path. I went through a little bit of wicca for a while, but then realized it didnt suit my spiritual need. I also looked into Buddhism but that didnt resonate with me either. My parents kept trying to bring me back and make me see "the light". But I needed an event, something, that would make me come back to the faith on my own. I told myself, if that's what's right for me, I will go back eventually, but I need to go back on my own. My parents kept telling me things that had happened to them, like the Virgin Mary crying oil. When my dad was young he was sick to the point where he could've easily died. he was so sick he couldn't move out of his bed. But one day, he saw St-Georges on his horse jump over him (yeah it sounds crazy, but keep on reading), He was cured. he got out of bed, no more fever no more nothing. He may have been hallucinating, i agree, but his belief that it was an act of God cured him! that's just one example. when my aunt's husband past away, Mary came to her and prayed with her all night about a week after his death. So many people have witnessed these kinds of things and I couldn't let them go unnoticed any longer. So I told myself, I'll try and look into that christianity thing, seeing i was born and raised into it, it didnt really have an effect on me because there was nothing special that made me believe 100%. So, my view completely changed when I first started taking my History of Satan class in university last semester. I learned how the Adversary was cast out and why and it made me understand what God was all about. That's when, around Easter time, I saw Jesus, sitting right next to me with his hand on my lap, and that was the turning point for me. I understood his message. Chrisitianity has made me look at things differently. while i was on my spiritual search, i went through a depression for about 3 years. I was very very lost, until that Satan class last semester. It may sound quite ironic, that a class on Satan made me turn to God, but it helped me understand alot of God's message. Now i look around and ask myself, how can there possibly not be a God. People find their spiritual path differently, christianity just happens to be mine and i'm honestly more happy now than i have ever been. SC: "In my opinion the story of heaven and hell is just propaganda, Its like saying oooh don't say anything bad about the church or god because then you will go to hell." That's just the church on a powertrip. The church did so many things back in the day just to have power. People were turning to the church because of fear and frankly, alot of the churches today still do that and i disagree with it completely. I went to a funeral once with my Kopt cousins, and the priest was saying, litterarly, that if you don't believe, you're going to hell. The hell with that! (no pun intended). It ain't true. I was so mad at the man. worst part is, people were nodding in agreement. I was ready to jump up, point at the man and scream "Liar". If God is so forgiving, why would he send us to hell if we talk bad about the church you might say. i asked myself that same question so many times, God is supposed to be forgiving! but like i said in a previous post, there's a limit to how much God can forgive. however, with the way church is going today, I'm pretty sure he's cursing it himself! -
Chimaera said on Aug 03, 2006....
Isn't the fall of Lucifer Milton and not the Bible? Forgive my gross illiteracy... My issue with fundies of all stripes, not just religious, is one of intellectual rigour. The criteria for argumentation seems to be entirely fluid -- for example, for some, the Bible is the Word, period. There is no interpretation, just the Word of God as laid down by his prophets. Until you rebut a point biblically -- at which point, the weaseling comes in. I find the same in feminist philosophy and in most post-modern analyses as well,so I'm not trying to pick exclusively on the religious. I have no problem with religion, only with certain instantiations of the principle. And ed, you're using the term agnostic properly -- ignore the retards who we have encountered who seek to redefine terms; the whole strong and weak atheism thing is crap. Atheists and theists agree on one thing: the evidence is sufficient to make a conclusive determination as to the existence of God. This is where the agnostic disagrees. -
silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....
chimaera: i'm waiting to direct a certain person of our acquaintance to this. :> btw: the text says what it says! there's no need for "interpretation"! :D and yes, i believe you're correct re: the fall--milton spun that brilliantly out of a tiny snippet of text. ed -
tifa said on Aug 03, 2006....
yes the fall of lucifer is milton, but it is trying to explain genesis and the presence of the snake and what not. its like a pre-genesis text. however, im pretty sure it talks about the fall of angels in the bible. the story of lucifer is very confusing. sometimes satan and lucifer are two different people and sometimes its the same person. -
tifa said on Aug 03, 2006....
Also, Milton's Paradise Lost is one of the main texts studied to try and understand the personnification of evil, i.e. Satan. -
StupidGenius said on Aug 03, 2006....
FD, maybe it is you that needs to open your mind to the possibility that your faith is floored. I gathered this statement from the Internet as I couldn't have put it better myself ------------------------------------------------------- The claim of Biblical inerrancy puts the Christian in the position of not just claiming that the original Bible was free of error (and, remember, none of the original autograph manuscripts exist) but that their modern version of the Bible is the end result of an error-free history of copying and translation beginning with the originals. Such a position is so specific that it allows one to falsify it simply by reference to the Bible itself. For example, Gen 32:30 states, "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." However, John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..." Both statements cannot be true. Either there is an error of fact, or an error of translation. In either case, there is an error. And if there is an error, then infallibility of the Bible (in this case the King James Version) is falsified. A typical defence used here is to look up the meaning of the original Hebrew / Greek, read that one of the words can have multiple meanings, and then pick the meaning that seems to break the contradiction. For example, the Christian might argue that "seen" or "face" means one thing in the first scripture, and something completely different in the second. The logical flaw in this approach is that it amounts to saying that the translator should have chosen to use a different word in one of the two scriptures in order to avoid the resulting logical contradiction that now appears in English—that is, the translator made an error. If no translation error occurred, then an error of fact exists in at least one of the two scriptures. =========================================== I recommend reading Encyclopaedia of Biblical Errancy C. Dennis Dennis McKinsey =========================================== My point is this, If you use the bible for guidance or to quote meaningless scripture to people who do not believe are you factually aware of what it is that you draw your guidance from? FD "Your foolish wisdom is finite and can never be greater than the wisdom of the infinite God. Thus, it is easier for you to reject the concept of God as you are unable to comprehend the infinite God with your finite understanding." 1. I never said I was greater than God. 2. I see no evidence that god exists so I do not believe. 3. How do you comprehend God when your teachings are floored. This is the link from where I gained the statement. It also has a list of further mistakes that are contained within the bible. ||{1}|| -
StupidGenius said on Aug 03, 2006....
Just a second short point, would you learn maths from a text books that you knew had mathamatical errors in it, or, would you put your faith in the author and take what it says as the truth? -
anonymous said on Aug 03, 2006....
I have studied the bible for many years....what most people don't realize is that there are TRADITIONS that have been adopted into the church which has nothing to do with the bible and thus it makes it confusing. All of your questions can be answered if given the opportunity. First, there was a comment on the 144,000. Some people think that this is the only number of people who will go to Heaven.... Here are some answers that I have come across..... Jesus said, "the meek will inherit the earth." So there has to be someone here. What is the purpose of those who gain the heavenly hope? Jesus was given a "government" Isaiah 9:6,7 He is called a King. In Revelation 20:1-3 we see those in heaven being given thrones and crowns. They will rule with Christ for 1000 years. Where will they rule? Revelation 5:10 has that answer. What will happen to the rest of Mankind? Daniel 2:44 says that God's Kingdom come into power in the midst of all the other kingdoms and it will consume all these other kingdoms and it will stand forever. Revelation says that the New Jerusalem will come DOWN from heaven, to where? The earth! And God will dwell with them! Even Jesus Christ taught us to pray for that Kingdom to come to the earth. Matthew 6:9,10 So what is the purpose of the 144000? To be co-rulers WITH Jesus Christ in his Government, over the earth. There will be millions of people living on the earth at that time. Will the wicked be here? Proverbs 2:21,22 21. For the upright will dwell in the land, and the blameless will remain in it; 22. but the wicked will be cut off from the earth, and the unfaithful will be uprooted from it. How long will the earth last? Psalms 104:5 says plainly 5. You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever, King James Bible. In the Psalms it shows that people will inherit the land and dwell forever upon it. Psalms 37:11, 29 But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. 29. The righteous shall inherit the land, And dwell in it forever. So the meek will inherit the earth. (Jesus very words.) and the 144000 will help rule over the earth during the 1000 year reign. According to the bible. It is TRADITION that says everyone will go to heaven. Not the bible. Answer to next item... Jesus death did away with the LAW code. The law code consisted of around 600 laws given to Israel which governed how they were to live in those times. For instance, every jewish man was required to go to Jersalem to worship there three times a year. there were instructions on how the priestly class was to be taken care of. There were also instructions on how to treat their fellows, what to do with the dead, and other things. they were given instructions on hygiene too. Ie...do not steal, do not lie, do not covet, etc. The rest of the Jewish Scriptures were NOT done away with. The book of Daniel and other inspired books contain scriptures which have not been fulfilled. These scriptures are valid for us today. The whole bible provides satisfying answers to questions today. However it takes time to study and find those answers. As for the contraditions in the bible, those can be answered too. Unfortunately people are always in a hurry and don't necessarily want the answers... Isn't that a shame? One must be willing to listen and learn first before those things can be explained. The Bible has been criticised by many people over the centuries, and it is an accurate book, portraying God's Word to mankind. It is only natural that in a this sinful world that people would reject it. Just a thought. -
FaithfulDisciple said on Aug 03, 2006....
You can try with all your limited finite wisdom to discredit the Bible but the infinite power of the Almighty God will not allow it. This truth is before you, yet you refuse the truth. The truth is revealed to you, yet you do not see the truth. You are the blind one SG, not me. You're the one with the dilemma, not me. I'm content with my God, the Infinite God of Truth, Love and Mercy. You are but a finite creation of God, yet you refuse to accept there is a God since you refuse to accept your finiteness. You refuse to acknowledge that there is a Supreme Being higher and greater than yourself because your mind is clouded by your foolish wisdom and your heart is jaded by your foolish pride. The Lord God is ever forgiving and merciful. No amount of discussion will change you and no amount of lengthy dissertation will destroy the firmness of my true faith in the one true living and Almighty God. I can't help you further in your agonizing search for the truth, go to Him that is Almighty and Merciful, ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and your heart shall be opened. Open your heart and mind to Jesus, only He can enlighten you, only He can save you from your predicament. I shall pray you find what your spirit is looking for. -
silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....
anonymous: there've been other anonymous commenters. just so i know whether you're the same anonymous commenter as i might encounter elsewhere in this discussion, i recommend that you select a name by which you can be referred. 1. your explanation re: the 144000 sounds plausible, but here's the thing: that's [i]not[/i] what john wrote in rev. 7 and you know it. 2. the rest of the jewish bible [i]is[/i] done away with: from the christian POV, those things were all a prelude until the savior arrived, weren't they? the covenant w/ abraham was there expressly for the purpose of giving jews a method of knowing god until that time. lastly: please don't make the mistake of thinking that only sinful people would reject the accuracy of the bible. that's just intellectual cowardice. or laziness. ed -
Indiefilm said on Aug 03, 2006....
What is it that we are trying to accomplish with all of this? Why is it that we as humans have this thing about making everyone agree with our own point of view? Isn't that what this is about, really? The inabilty of certain types of people to accept that others might see things differently? That they might have a different opinion, and a different set of experience from which they base that opinion or belief? just by way of example... S.G. (from what i understand by his posts) can't agree with the idea of accepting something with out emperical evidence to support it. He questions the validity of the bible. Faithful (again, just what it looks like to me) believes that there is truth in the bible and has a strong belief in God and his religion. Two different perspectives, based on two different sets of experience. Its the inability to accept the fact that not everyone is the same, that not everyone sees the world with the same culteral / religous / personal 'lens' that breeds intolerance. Other people see things differently than you do, they always have and always will. Tolorance is the ability to accept that fact and understand that other poeple have different beliefs. You don't have to [i]agree[/i] with them to be able to understand and tolerate those beliefs. -
bloc said on Aug 03, 2006....
@fm "The Lord God is ever forgiving and merciful" Are we reading the same bible? -
silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....
indie, surely you're aware that when people disagree about deeply held beliefs the result is generally this? ed -
Indiefilm said on Aug 03, 2006....
Ed, hence my retorical question of "Why is it that we as humans have this thing about making everyone agree with our own point of view?" ;) Just because I'm aware of it, doesn't mean i have to agree that 'thats just the way it is and nothing will ever change it'. with that kind of defeatist attitude, of course it will never change... but then again, I'm a bit of an optimist, and I don't think that it [i]has[/i] to be that way just because that's the way its always been. If enough poeple were to stand up and preach tolerance, rather than 'my belief is right, yours is wrong', it might become fashionable to not be a bigot. Stranger things have happend. ;) I"m almost sure of it... -
lidstrom82 said on Aug 03, 2006....
Jeezum crow, silver, this post is out of hand! It's getting to this: if you want views and responses, talk about religion. I think from reading these that SGenius has put as much effort as anyone in explaining a position. SGenius, it does make sense. There are errors in the Bible. What kind of errors? Ages of inconsequential rulers, years and dates, and other things. SGenius, you did point out that many Christians believe what they want to from reading the Bible, but are you not taking negative views of it and doing the same thing? I ask this because there's just as much evidence to support the Bible's claims, but you are predisposed toward the negative. I love you as a brother, but proving the Bible wrong will not give you a better understanding of life. I say this because it teaches love for others. Just because God punished people for wickedness doesn't mean He is an evil God. Bloc asked me how we can know when the Bible is speaking literally and when it is metaphorically. Simple - read it. Ask questions about it from people who won't cram it down your throat. I think far too many look at the negative side of Christianity and throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you took the worst of any group, they'd all look bad. Christianity IS supposed to be different, but we all screw up just the same, religious or not. Christianity gets a bad rap today because it is crammed down too many throats, it's fire and brimstone, it's forced upon us as children, it condemns stem cell research and homosexuality and all sorts of behaviors/groups...and that's a heck of a lot of evidence against it. However - many nonchristians do the same exact things. Also, the Bible is important because it will tell anyone willing to read it the Truth about many things. If you don't read it, and get your understanding of it from others, that doesn't count. Probably the best thing is to research all religions and make the call ourselves. Until then, we need to keep silent on the beliefs of others. -
silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....
indie: yes, but out of such discussion can sometimes come understanding. what's the old joke? those who love the law and sausage should never see either being made? so it is here, IMHO. lidstrom: that was very well-said, sir. ed -